How does Primitive Ventures partner Dovey Wan view the current cryptocurrency industry

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In order to let everyone better understand the content of the program, we have transcribed the full text #20 - Chatting with Dovey The Past and Future of the Crypto Industry show. The content is a bit long, with a total of 21,000 words. You can find some time and read it patiently. I believe it will definitely bring you some gains and inspirations.

The closedness of the circle

Daniel: Hello everyone, Welcome to the latest episode of Forkit. I'm Daniel Lu Guoning, the anchor of today's show. Today's program is very special. We are at the Qingteng Teahouse in Hangzhou. Sitting opposite me is Ms. Dovey Wanhui.

Dovey: Hi, I'm Dovey.

Daniel:  Dovey, this is the second time I try to catch up with you to record a show.

I remember that it was about half a month ago, also in Hangzhou, I originally wanted to find you after I made an appointment with you that day, In the end, the two of us and Xiong Yue sat in the same place and talked about hardcore health preservation for half an afternoon, so we didn't have time to record this episode. But this time it was very coincidental. I know that after you left Hangzhou, you came to Hangzhou to participate in the Inbit event this time. Yesterday’s Inbit event was very successful. You made a theme sharing and round table at that event Discussion, the topic you discussed yesterday was particularly interesting. So I think our program today will start with your topic sharing yesterday.

Dovey: No problem.

Daniel: I remember that at the beginning, you brought up a particularly interesting point of view. In fact, I want to laugh a little in my heart, because I know what you are talking about, but I am not sure if other people have gotten to the point you want to say.

You mentioned that you came to China because of the epidemic, but after you lived in China for a period of time, you sensitively I realized that the domestic circle is actually quite closed. This does not mean dissing our circle, but feeling this characteristic.

Dovey: Right.

Daniel: You said closed at the time, can you tell everyone how you feel about this?

Dovey: First of all, I think it’s not just our circle. When I say our circle, I mean crypto in general, treat all currency circles, chain circles, and mining circles as an encrypted digital currency circle. I think China's encrypted digital currency circle is actually the same as other circles in China, such as the Internet circle and the financial circle. First of all, we have our own independent set of business logic. Secondly, language is a very important factor. Whether you want to watch foreign news or information, there is still a language barrier.

Another very important point is that the first principle we often say is different on both sides. For example, when the United States was drafting the Declaration of Independence, the first version said we hold the truth to be sacred. We believed that these truths were sacred. This version was written by Jefferson, and Franklin Change the word sacred to self-evident. It is self-evident that the principles of all men are created equal are self-evident.

I feel that whether the way things are done in Chinese society as a whole, or the logic of business, many social rules are not so clear , there is no first principle. If a thing is self-evident, we put it in mathematics, it is actually an axiom-level existence, and you don't need to prove it. A straight line will be formed between two points. This thing does not need to be proved. This is the existence of an axiomatic principle. I think Western society or American society itself has some such rules.

Of course, this has something to do with our cultural and historical background. We have never had strong religious beliefs, and Confucianism has also been Each dynasty changed its own version. Confucianism itself has come to our society today, perhaps because of the development of modernization, basically every generation of us will be cleaned by our own principles or values.

Back to your question just now, why do I feel that our circle is relatively closed.

The language threshold is definitely the first, and the language threshold leads to the lag of information.

Secondly, I feel that the signal-to-noise ratio in our circle is very low, that is, the ratio of information to noise is very low.

We do a lot of things without a clear underlying logic and underlying principles, so we often feel blind, or say May not have a strong sense of self.

I made a metaphor on Weibo before. You are in a school of fish and each fish is just doing some very mechanical turning movements with the fish around it. But when these fish are together, it is actually a very spectacular fish school, but a single fish in the fish school does not know that it is in a very spectacular fish school, nor does it know that it is just following a few fish around it Such a mechanical act forms such a spectacular group.

So I think all, not only our industry, including the Internet, finance, and even some other traditional industries, Chinese practitioners Those who have received a lot of attention will have such a feeling that they are relatively introverted and relatively strong in herding.

Daniel: I agree, but the feeling is different from yours.

It brought me the biggest feeling probably in 2018, I spent a lot of time in the Bay Area and New York We met a lot of teams and investors. At that time, we were doing the first round of fundraising for our project, doing roadshows, and participated in many overseas activities at that time.

For example, CryptoKitties, such as the 0x project, and many other very popular projects at the time, you can often find them in the Bay Area or New York At an after party, when you see those project founders, you can walk up to him and ask him a specific question, and he will immediately explain to you what he thinks.

You will find that you have not crossed many levels with practitioners in the entire industry, you are only one level with him, you can ask He, he will tell you, is very simple. But in China, I feel that on the one hand, it is industry practitioners and ordinary industry participants. Perhaps more than one layer is separated, and they need countless intermediate layers to help them solve problems more efficiently.

First of all, there may be more levels, and the viewpoints are very diverse. I can clearly feel that there are some people around me who have very strong opinions and opinions, and they are constantly influencing others to believe in some of the values he advocates in this industry.

For example, we are doing public chains, or we are doing PoW, PoS, these things are noisy in China Very fierce, everyone has this point of view, and everyone is also very concerned about the current situation and future development of this industry, and the gap with European and American projects. We are also thinking about how we can learn, and even how to develop our own innovations, but, There are too many variables, so it is difficult to form a unified consensus.

Dovey: Is the domestic circle diverse? My definition of multivariate may be different.

Take biological evolution as an example, biological evolution is due to many random variations, and this variation itself is just suitable for such an environment change to better survive and reproduce.

My definition of diversity, it needs to be original, I think this kind of diversity in China is relatively poor, in fact Diversity in China often means that the gap between circles is very large. Everyone likes to have various so-called labels and factions, so I have never understood why there are chain circles, currency circles, and mining circles. Don’t everyone help Bit Do you work with coins? Why are there so many circles?

I think the division of circles is actually an inherent characteristic of our culture or society. We all like to talk about what you are from my hometown. I am from the Guangdong side. If you are from Chaoshan, there will be a very strong bond between Chaoshan people and Chaoshan people.

So I don’t really agree with the saying that there are many yuan in the circle. I think our circle does not have many yuan. A more technical term, I don’t think it is diverse, I think it is very heterogeneous, it is heterogeneous, and heterogeneous is heterogeneous reflected in some superficial levels.

Daniel: I know what you mean.

Dovey: Every society and even every subdivided social group has some various contempt chains.

The most exaggerated thing is, I have many friends of Ali, they all live in Qinchengli, I heard a It's a terrible thing. The chain of contempt and the division of circles in Chinese society have reached such a point. They have a kindergarten, which is full of children of Ali employees. Sometimes when their employees’ children are noisy and fight, they will say that my father is P, and your father is P. My dad is P9, your dad is only P7.

I feel that one of the amazing functions of East Asian culture is that everything can be stratified or labeled, partisan Culture does not mean a party in the political sense, but a partisan in the social sense.

So I think the domestic circle is still very heterogeneous, we are engaged in blockchain, I think it can be compared to many For shards, there is no communication between each shards, this is the feeling. I think we must at least have a concept like DPoS, but there is no such thing as DPoS. Now there are all kinds of different shards, and they are particularly easy to be self-indulgent.

Daniel: And between different shards, if there is no one to do the game, everyone is unwilling to find common topics with each other.

Dovey: This is the function of sharding. The reason why we need sharding is because shards need better communication. I am not talking about advantages and disadvantages, whether it is heterogeneous or sharding, if we imagine each thing as a shards, its internal communication is indeed very efficient.

Daniel: Exactly. After hearing what you said, I know what you're complaining about, but I feel powerless to refute it.

I try to integrate into different circles and different small factions or labels, because we want to develop this industry I still try to unite as many people as possible, which is a bit like forming a united front. I don't want to have a good relationship with one group of people and then become opposed to another group of people.

Dovey: Yes, Guoning you mentioned this, I might want to add something.

I feel that this is also related to the very cruel competitive environment in China's entire business society, probably because of the cruel The competitive environment has led to the zero-sum thinking among everyone.

Daniel: Zero-sum thinking.

Dovey: That's zero-sum. This can be seen from the Chinese Internet, including all Chinese companies, the spirit of partnership is very poor. If it is a traditional industry, the spirit of contract may be very poor. The zero-sum mentality is, either you die or I live, our cake is only so big. I think this is also related to the farming society, because the farming society will inevitably involve in the end, because its output is limited.

Daniel: Yes.

Dovey: The output of a single mu of land must have a very large upper limit, and we relied on Yuan Longping to cross this thing past. If you want to trace the origin, I think it has something to do with our entire farming society and the well field system that Shang Yang started to implement at that time.

Daniel: Yes, I understand you.

Behind the institutionalization of the industry

Daniel: Last time I remembered I was looking for Xiong Yue, and I also found a A place to record an audio. That time was very special. Not long after 312, when I pulled Xiong Yue to record, the title I gave to that program was, have we encountered the so-called Minsky moment of Bitcoin, and the whole market went down directly? After all, how much confidence do you still have now?

But look at these two days, after you finished sharing last night, if we look at the price of the secondary market now, Just look at the price of Bitcoin, I don't know how much it is now.

Dovey: 24,000 should be.

Daniel: Yes, $24,000.

I mark the price here first. Generally speaking, I rarely talk about the price increase or decrease, but this Behind the price trend, there are actually many different things, which is what you mentioned in your sharing yesterday. Now there is a big trend that this industry is being or has been institutionalized.

In fact, I believe that there are many people, especially the relatively small participants, who do not realize the continuous participation of the organization After that, how much space does the entire market have for everyone to play in the future, and how do you manage yourself in the market that is expected to be penetrated by institutions in the future.

Dovey: Yes, as I shared yesterday, institutionalization did not happen all at once or suddenly last year matter.

In fact, since the last bull market, some more farsighted venture capitalists in the West and the United States, there are more Far-sighted industry practitioners have already begun to make long-term layouts. Institutions are also made up of a group of people. This group of people will have two characteristics. First, they have safe and compliant channels for a large number of fiat currency channels. The second is that they have a lot of capital in their hands, which is a characteristic of this group of people in institutions.

The second thing I want to say is that institutionalization is bound to happen, why?

Because Bitcoin itself is actually an asset, it is one of many assets, as one of many assets When its volume and the interest of its demand side are large enough, it will inevitably be institutionalized. Because the distribution of legal currency itself is uneven, a large number of institutions have a large amount of legal currency and a large amount of assets, and more than half of the equity in the US stock market is in the hands of ETF fund managers.

Daniel: In China’s A-share market, I think this trend is gradually emerging.

Dovey: Right. I think many domestic friends are unfamiliar with institutionalization, or feel that it is relatively sudden. The first reason is what we just said, because domestic information is relatively closed.

Daniel: In addition, our domestic financial history is very short.

Dovey: Yes, the short financial history is one aspect, and another aspect is that this asset has not been able to be prove. I have always felt that Bitcoin is a pyramid scheme, a scam, and I don’t want it. Because Bitcoin or digital currency assets have always been an asset that cannot be put on the table in our financial environment in China, but in foreign countries, it has now become a golden baby that everyone wants to rub against. Feel.

Daniel: According to Chinese saying, it is panacea.

Dovey: Yes, or this matter will make some people in traditional Wall Street think this matter is very trendy and cool.

Daniel: You can clearly feel this when you are abroad.

Dovey: Right.

Daniel: In Chinese society, you can’t feel it, and there are not many media actively reporting this matter.

Dovey: Yes, relatively large and mainstream media have always had some negative views. biggest difference. Everyone's own acceptance of digital currency is completely different from the definition on the moral level.

Daniel: Yes, if you look at the media in our circle, sometimes sporadic reports on digital assets or decentralization In terms of how foreign assets have been accepted by foreign countries or that PayPal can do transactions, everyone interprets it as a positive signal for the market.

If we can use Alipay to buy coins, because we can’t really use Alipay to buy coins now, but we see When it comes to the news that PayPal can trade, we don't have such a strong sense of substitution. But if you are overseas, you are a PayPal user and you can buy coins in a compliant manner, this will change a lot.

Dovey: Yes, in fact, I talked about this at the round table yesterday. In terms of this Chinese concept, what is institutionalization? Institutionalization means that I can easily deposit and withdraw funds in Alipay and WeChat Pay.

Second point, I can also deposit my currency in the bank, you go to China Construction Bank or other banks. If you were in Singapore, DBS might be like this.

Third point, I can get my social security, five insurances and one housing fund, and I can also come to buy coins.

Daniel: You can configure some digital assets in a compliant manner and become part of your own asset allocation.

Dovey: Yeah, so if you put your mind on it, it couldn't have happened overnight .

Greyscale was established in 2013, and it has started to accept investment and Bitcoin deposits in 2013. Coinbase’s A round was invested by Fred Wilson in 2013. I said at the meeting yesterday that the New York hearing was held in January 2014.

Daniel: I remember that hearing.

Dovey: That's a pretty big deal.

Daniel: That matter was very big at the time, I recall my feelings about the hearing at that time.

At that time, although I did not have a deep understanding of the foreign hearing system and compliance system, I knew that After the digital currency reached a very high point, it was paid attention to and finally pushed to the hearing.

This incident may be regarded as an industry news in China, and it is not felt in China, but its impact is actually very profound.

And when you mentioned it yesterday, I even had a feeling that there may be more than half or even 2/3 of the people in the audience , After they entered this circle seriously, it should be in 2017 or even 2018, so if you go back to him to trace these things and these people in 2014, maybe everyone really lacks these cognitions.

Dovey: Yes, so I actually wanted to correct a point of view with you when I said that yesterday. It started last year, not in 2018. Institutionalization has already started in 2014.

Daniel: Institutionalization started in 2014, do you know how I understand this matter?

I also started to enter this industry in 2014. What we saw in the middle was that the industry seemed to have gone through two rounds cycle, and these two cycles have eliminated all the people in the previous cycle, maybe more than 90%, so now there are only a small number of experienced people, in fact, most of them are new Admission of these participants.

Looking at it this way, I am really amazed at the far-reaching and long-term layout of these overseas institutions.

< h3>Old and newcomers in the industry

Dovey: And because all assets and capital will have a Gravity effect, if you think about it, Grayscale has been hoarding coins since 2013.

Of course, this may be my personal feeling is not the same. In the industry, those closest friends have actually not changed, whether it is abroad or domestic, they have basically remained the same for so many years.

Daniel: I feel the same as you, but the one that gives me a stronger feeling is recently, I can divert this On the topic, let me talk about my own feelings.

There is a big thing recently, Ethereum 2.0 Launch, 2.0 Launch is called Beacon Chain.

Of course there are many staunch supporters in the Ethereum community, and these staunch supporters are the supporters of the PoS underlying consensus algorithm. Fans, they will naturally disagree with PoW people, and there will be some conflicts in some places.

I saw another scene, a bunch of old people I know, talking to these new PoS people, to some very The basic question, in 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, and 2019, has been repeatedly said, and there is no new thing, and it will be rediscovered in 2020, and everyone will discuss it with each other. Noisy, no one can convince anyone.

Dovey: This is actually quite normal.

Daniel: My feeling is that PoW people are a bit weaker. To be honest, his voice has dropped and his influence has declined up.

For example, yesterday was the Inbit conference, and everyone is engaged in PoW mining. Exchange and discuss the development of the industry. But if you put this thing in all these

projects or public chains, or the currency circle, the volume of these voices is actually getting smaller and smaller.

I think on the one hand, the development of this industry is relatively mature, on the other hand, these PoW old people are not willing to Then keep repeating the views that I have repeated for many years, to deal with some newcomers who are PoS round after round.

I feel this way very strongly, so I’ll just talk about it.

Dovey: Let me add my feelings here. After the price of Bitcoin exceeded 19,800 US dollars this year, it slightly broke through the previous high , That day a group of our old friends were very emotional.

I have a very strong feeling, that is to say, I am very tired from outputting these things, and I feel really tossing and turning Speaking, of course, my own understanding will definitely improve in the process of speaking. I think that for many friends who are new to this thing, there is actually enough information on the market to improve their understanding.

Because for us, we have started thinking about other things.

For example, although we now talk about institutionalization, the price will be higher and higher, but this is not what we are thinking about something happened. Brother Biao and I have been talking about something recently, and we are quite worried. Because in the future, Bitcoin will have many so-called super nodes, a large number of hosting nodes, Grayscale, Fidelity, Coinbase, BitGo, etc., these are super large Bitcoin hosting nodes.

We often think, of course, this may be because as a Bitcoiner, we will compare paranoid and extreme things to many things. We are now thinking of an endgame. When all these Bitcoins flow into these super hosting nodes more and more, it will pose a certain danger to the ownership of the assets themselves.

Because we also know that the US government is now oscillating between the extreme left and the extreme right. A particularly leftist government really wants socialism, and this is what he has to deal with. This has formed a certain threat to the ownership of assets in a sense. So I often think about what to do with Brother Biao and the others. This is a problem. We're thinking about these things right now.

A  Hyperbitcoinization Society

Dovey: I can also share with you, many very old Bitcoiners overseas, what are they doing now, there are many invisible things This kind of super rich, they may have more than 5,000 coins in their hands, and everyone doesn't know who they are, and they are not so active in this industry.

Daniel: No need to show their influence anymore.

Dovey: Yes, they also think that Bitcoin has grown up, and there is no need to do anything about it.

They are basically divided into three types of people now, the first type of people is researching cheap and clean new energy sources, such as small nuclear reactors , told me that they will sponsor some projects like this, and many people are engaged in solar energy. There is a word called Hyperbitcoinization

Daniel: There is another coined word like this, can you explain it?

Dovey: Hyperbitcoinization refers to a society that is very bitcoinized, and it is a relatively extreme state.

I have a point of view, of course this is also an investment thesis of me as an investor, we now have two parallel universes. The first parallel universe is our bit-based parallel universe. In the bit-standard parallel universe, Bitcoin is an M0 in the economy. On top of M0, whether we see Ethereum or DeFi, it is actually a currency Derived, this is my big investment thinking framework.

Daniel: If you think about it this way, it is actually very obvious.

Dovey: This has always been my personal investment framework. Another parallel world is the world of the legal currency standard, whether it is the dollar standard or a basket of currencies.

What is happening now in these two parallel worlds is that there are various channels in between. Regardless of whether it is USDT or the current legal currency deposit institutions, there will be various wormholes in the middle, so that the parallel universe of the bit standard will have a black hole effect, desperately and continuously. The fluidity attracts it, turning into a black hole effect.

This is what happened to us now. I just said that word, Hyperbitcoinization refers to an ultimate state, the fiat currency parallel universe has completely collapsed, and you can imagine that universe no longer exists.

Daniel: We now have two parallel chains, these two parallel chains, no matter who is Layer 2, everyone It is the base chain of each other. You have crossed over the assets on the other chain, but the effectiveness of the final liquidation of assets depends on the other chain.

This can be simply looked at, now more and more bitcoins will start to be issued on the ether, the bitcoin chain What if something goes wrong with Bitcoin on Ethereum?

Dovey: I think you can make an analogy, but it’s not exactly like this, I just wanted to explain the word Hyperbitcoinization< /p>

Daniel: Yes, I understand what you said.

Dovey: In this case, Hyperbitcoinization is actually priced in bits, which is equivalent to saying that the GDP of all the world is priced in bits. It's called Hyperbitcoinization.

Daniel: That's super extreme.

Dovey: Yes, so these very hardcore bitcoin old people are actually preparing for this matter .

A group of them are engaged in clean energy, because in the end it is PoW, if you want to maintain the security of this chain, you must have Cheap enough, clean, accessible, and sustainable energy.

Another group of people are engaged in outer space, why do they engage in outer space? They are also very, very extreme. They feel that if the earth is in chaos one day, sooner or later, I must ensure that my Bitcoin full node can run outside the earth. This is what the second wave of people is doing.

The third wave of people, because they are very rich, if you want to influence various policies and regulations abroad, you It is an organization that specializes in giving a lot of money to this kind of lobbying. Some of them have their own lobby, or some are setting up foundations to support various lobbying organizations.

These old bitcoiners are basically doing these three types of things, and their ultimate goal in doing these three things is For the Hyperbitcoinization I just mentioned. Of course, I don’t have their level yet, but if you think about it, many old friends and seniors around me have already entered such a stage, so I will feel very tired, why am I still saying it over and over again? The same words and views as four or five years ago.

Because Bitcoin is a constant thing, from 10 years ago to now, what has Bitcoin changed? Because it is an unchanging thing, because it is unchanging, it has value.

Daniel: In fact, a lot has changed on the micro level, but on the macro level, the currency has not changed. But for the chain, it seems that several BIPs came in, and then after extremely difficult and lengthy negotiations, a community consensus was formed. The microcosm is changing, but the macrocosm is not.

Dovey: Even if the micro things you mentioned by Guoning are good, the changes are slow.

Daniel: Very slow.

Dovey: If you think about something that needs to become an M0, it cannot be changed. Why did you choose gold? It is because gold is immutable, and many people do not understand the principle of constant change, and why slow is fast.

Daniel: I have been following some Bitcoin Maximalists for a long time, such as Xiong Yue, He discussed more than once, that is, we consider the longer-term future of Bitcoin, what will it look like in 10 years or decades, and we are very worried that its economic model will not be able to function normally in more than ten years.

Dovey: There is no problem with the economic model. People still worry about the fee market, but the fee market has been simulated in many cases For the scenario, we can take 2017, when the peak of the last bear market, we look at the handling fee.

Daniel: I know what you mean, before the Bitcoin halving, the fee income once exceeded the block reward

p>

Dovey: Yes, it’s more than half of your total income, so I don’t think the fee market is a big problem.

Daniel: In fact, Xiong Yue also has this point of view. You just said that there is a wave of Hyperbitcoinization people doing energy.

Because we are doing PoW, when we consider PoW, there is actually another role, you have to look at it from the perspective of energy To think about this problem, it is not computing power and mining machines that can determine how the market is, the ultimate limit is determined by energy. About five or six years ago, the Fukushima nuclear power plant was blown up, and the whole world was protesting. France also withdrew its nuclear power plant, and Germany also withdrew its nuclear power plant

China may slow down the proportion of nuclear power, and the whole The energy process of human beings has been slowed down because of such events.

Only those who do PoW mining will pay attention to better energy and how to get more efficient energy. However, there are only about 2.5 million Bitcoins that can be mined. With this limited 2.5 million Bitcoins, plus the fee income, everyone is thinking about how to gain an advantage in terms of energy and continue to support Bitcoin mining.

Bitcoin Rationalist

Dovey: Here I would like to say that at least my own definition of Hyperbitcoinization and Bitcoin Maximalist may be different from Guoning’s. For example, I consider myself a Bitcoin Rationalist.

Daniel: Bitcoin Rationalist?

Dovey: Yes, I am very rational, I am a rationalist, I think Xiong Yue is in my definition, He is not a Bitcoin Maximalist, a real Bitcoin Maximalist. For example, if you go abroad, like Udi Werther, Maximalist has a characteristic of its uniqueness, which means that he only pays attention to Bitcoin itself. He thinks that other things are first What is not worthy of attention is not worth mentioning in front of Bitcoin.

So whether it’s me, Xiong Yue, or Super, we’re not actually a Bitcoin Maximalist, we It is Bitcoin Rationalist, we are still very rational about Bitcoin. I have a buddy named Hasu, he is quite famous abroad, he said something, I agree.

He basically means that you love something deeply, you have to criticize it, because then it will become more Robust, like spoiled children who never do anything. So I think many Bitcoin Maximalists, as their parents, actually dote on Bitcoin very much, but I don’t think they should dote on Bitcoin. We also know a lot of problems, how to make the asset itself or the value exchange mechanism become ours. As imagined, we still have some critical thinking of our own, so we are more of a Bitcoin rationalist, that is, a Bitcoin Rationalist.

Daniel: Yes, like you said that Xiong Yue is not a typical Bitcoin Maximalist, but my point of view with him is actually the same It's all different. My position is this, what he said is right, no problem, I agree, but what they focus on is the coin itself, we focus on the chain, I have to find out what I can do in this matter place of things.

So in the end we found an entry point, using technical means to create a chain, and then realize our ideas, opinions and what we want to do on this chain , As for Bitcoin, you said that besides promoting it and attracting more people to know and understand it, as a developer, you can do too little on it.

Dovey: Yes, I fully understand this. Even Bitcoin itself has only 20 full-time developers. Probably not.

Daniel: And the core of it may not be an engineer, but more about underlying security research, and some A person who studies cryptography.

Integrated Innovation

< p>Dovey: When we first started, we talked about the open source community, Apache Software Foundation, I especially understand why developers are more likely to be attracted by nascent technologies.

But it's a pity, at least my point of view is that Bitcoin is first of all a value consensus, and it actually fights in the end It’s all value consensus itself, and technology is a means of realization, so it doesn’t need to be particularly advanced and efficient in technology. In fact, if you look at Satoshi Nakamoto’s white paper, several core technical points are quoted. It was a paper in the 1980s, and its real innovation is actually the consensus, Proof of Work.

Daniel: Actually  Proof of Work is not innovation either.

Dovey: Yes, it’s not really the first innovation, it’s just that it’s a clever way to string all these things together. For example, if you take the iPhone itself apart and look at it, everything is not innovative, but it is put together. I think Bitcoin itself is an integrated innovation, and the carrier of its innovation is a value consensus carrier.

Daniel: Yes, when you were sharing yesterday, I finally felt that you conveyed an anxiety. The vast majority of Chinese institutions have not jumped out of this paradigm shift to claim what role they want to play.

Dovey: Chinese institutions, the first one, do not have any premise, because this thing is politically incorrect.

Daniel: Yes, yes.

Dovey: You don’t have any prerequisites to do this, so he can’t use his strength.

What is True Freedom

Daniel: Yes, at this point in time, overseas institutions are not in the mid-to-late stage , It is still in the early stage, and a large amount of assets are finally absorbed by these overseas institutions like a black hole. I remember that you also gave a conclusion at the end, that is, everyone must not hand over the chips in their hands.

Dovey: Yes, this is the easiest thing to do as an ordinary currency holder.

Because you hand over the chips, the first one, the cost of getting it back later may be raised.

Another, there will be more and more paper bits in the future, and more and more bitcoin derivatives, but the paper bits themselves It may not be able to give you just cash in the end. Because real bitcoins are becoming more and more scarce and limited, I also repeatedly told everyone on Weibo, don’t take paper bitcoins, you have to get real bitcoins.

Daniel: Yes, because I have followed your Weibo, I think you have been shouting about this for a long time, and it has always been this The point of view has never changed. I can also understand your point of view.

Dovey: I think there is a threshold for understanding this thing, but it is much higher than I imagined in China. understand why.

Daniel: I think it is actually difficult for everyone to establish a strong belief in one thing, just like you said at the beginning Yes, we are actually just the sheep among the flock.

Dovey: Yes, I think there is another reason.

It may also be due to cultural and social reasons. China is very particular about this kind of parental culture or big brother culture. The Chinese society is composed of a big brother With a group of people, individualism is relatively weak in this society, and people will always get used to clinging to the "big brother".

For example, state-owned units, I feel very deeply about this, my grandma and grandpa were big pots of rice back then, everything was a unit Arrangement, from children to school to learn all kinds of things, everyone has a very strong awareness of this collective unit, so this kind of thing will happen in our circle, everyone is particularly dependent on centralized exchanges, and you will find that China The customer service of the exchange is really.

Daniel: An invincible existence.

Dovey: Yes, she exists like invincible, what do you talk to her, she responds to requests, this is actually a characteristic of Chinese society, response In the industry, everyone relies too much on centralized exchanges.

I often say that the private key is in hand, I have it in the world, I can’t wait to say something every day, everyone is very concerned about mastering your own private key , take care of the real bit in your own hands, because there are all kinds of centralized exchanges with invincible customer service, because everyone has forgotten the big brother culture and parent culture in society, it is the same as owning it independently as an independent individual What kind of thing is it like? We can't talk too deeply about private property, but we all understand it.

Daniel: That's right, we can't talk about this topic seriously.

Dovey: Yes, but we all understand, in fact, you can ask these few things, what have you really owned, What is yours? Is your wealth yours? Is your marriage the result of your own serious thinking? I think a lot of people don't think that way.

Daniel: Everyone has never explored whether I understand what freedom is.

Dovey: Yes, yes, this is the lowest logic.

I met a very good female friend last night, we met for the first time, the little bitcoin princess, I really admire One thing about her is that she has no technical background at all, nor does she have a particularly good education background. I think she may be a typical representative of ordinary Chinese people. She is just an ordinary girl.

This ordinary girl bought all the assets in her hands at the time of 3.12. She used to be in a traditional industry , there is no one around her who does the Internet. She really had the courage to buy the bottom on 3.12. I didn't understand it at the time, and then I asked her

Daniel: This is definitely not a rational behavior.

Dovey: Yes, I asked her, generally for a person, to understand this matter, understand this matter a little , To truly unite knowledge and action to transform one's cognition into action power, the process is actually very long.

She said that I don't really understand, but I know this thing will make me very free. She just said these two words, which shocked me very much.

Although due to historical and cultural reasons, many people in China do not know how to truly own something, which can be thought and concept , relationship, wealth. Many of us do not have such a good understanding of the real  

ownership itself.

But everyone has the right to pursue freedom. When she said this sentence to me yesterday, I felt very shocked. I think that freedom itself is not a slogan, but something that we can obtain in many ways in our daily life.

Daniel: Yes, I really agree, especially after going to many places and communicating with more different people, This feeling is more obvious.

What does it mean to be listed on Coinbase?

< /p>

< p>Daniel: Actually, I want to continue to talk with you about a different topic. There is a big news recently, which is the Coinbase exchange.

In fact, Chinese people don’t know much about this exchange. The exchange that more people know may be OK in the past, but now Huobi, and Binance, which rose after Huobi. But everyone knows very little about the Coinbase exchange. I read the recent news that the Coinbase exchange is preparing to go public.

Now the media is writing news about its listing, its valuation is 28-30 billion US dollars, what we read is news, but Few people understand the background and call the valuation to this position. What does this height mean? This is actually a very iconic thing.

Dovey: Yes, this matter can be very technical, because the US capital market has its own way

Daniel: We don’t need to talk so deeply about this place, but I want to talk about one thing, Coinlist is now the largest known and compliant A Token selling platform.

We have dealt with Coinlist. It took nearly a year from the beginning to the end, and the lawyers of both parties spent a lot of time, Documentation, to achieve compliance in all aspects, at least few people in this industry in China understand, what exactly do you plan after you finish this set? has no meaning? Because in the decentralized world, there are no rules and no restrictions. Just go up. Those who are attracted will go up, and those who are not attracted will just walk away silently.

However, we did receive some friends who were close to us, especially those who are more familiar with the capitalist world in Europe and America. Some influences, he said that if you want to succeed, you have to go this way, you can’t make concessions, so we spent a huge cost on Coinlist, and finally walked through Coinlist step by step.

Including Coinbase, Coinlbase spends huge costs to comply with the US market, few people understand it in the Chinese market, so when After the valuation came out, I believe that all those people who do valuation analysis and investment in the whole country may have their jaws dropped.

Dovey: I don’t think there is any problem with its valuation. Of course, we can say that it is overvalued or undervalued. Its valuation model, like accounting, can have self-consistent logic. We can make an analogy with this, based on PE analysis, purely based on its profit, plus the premium that will be given to it because of compliance, I think this price is completely ok, no problem.

The meaning of compliance

< pt">

Dovey: What I want to talk about is another question you just mentioned, what exactly is compliance? As a Bitcoiner, I think compliance is meaningless. Of course, this may be more social Darwinism, but it is what it is.

For example, suppose that the original purpose of compliance was to protect the weak and so-called unqualified investors. When 10,000 people make an investment, 100 people may go to stud, and 10 of these 100 people may increase leverage stud, and one of these 10 people may go bankrupt and then jump off the building. Regulation is to protect this person. The earliest meaning of supervision is to do this.

As a Bitcoiner, I think this matter is the tuition he should pay, so look at compliance from the perspective of a Bitcoiner The existence of this matter, I think it is of little significance, but you have to see whether compliance is meaningful to the popularity of a thing, it has huge significance.

Daniel: From another perspective, if there will be some relatively large conflicts between the centralized system and the decentralized system in the future , at least take the middle compliance road, you are looking for, at my point there is not such a big collision broke out, so we are looking for a route to get through. We believe that this open route can give a lot of people in the old world, or people with old ideas some stronger confidence.

Dovey: Yes, I think compliance is of great significance at least at this stage, because this market is a jungle after all law. But when it comes to the law of the jungle, is it true that sheep and little white rabbits should not exist, of course not. I think compliance is actually an unavoidable choice under the law of the jungle.

For compliance, at least everyone will have a higher degree of trust in the asset itself, which I am very much looking forward to seeing of a thing. If our side can comply with the regulations, that is very good. You don’t have to say that Bitcoin is a scam anymore. When talking with my parents and friends, I think at least I can talk to them without spending so much energy and cost on education. Talk about this matter.

Daniel: When we were determined to follow the path of compliance, there was actually one thing that had a great impact on us. It is a symbolic event for us. Do you remember that there was a project called TON before

?

Dovey: Of course.

Daniel: That project is actually huge in terms of influence and funding scale, and it may be one of the few very large ones I know The project was finally demolished because of compliance.

Dovey: Yes, so I said that all the regulations we comply with now are the regulations in the US dollar system, if it is not a Russian The project is a local project in the United States, and it should be over after paying the fine. Look at Tezos, look at EOS, the compliance itself depends on whose rules it complies with, and the rules are different all over the world.

Daniel: Yes, yes.

Then someone came to me and asked me, what do you think of the valuation of Coinbase? I told him that this is the value of compliance. Some people on the other side actually know the system in North America and the system under the supervision of the SEC. It can really support such a high valuation, at least I think there is no problem with this.

Dovey: Yes, in fact, let’s not talk about compliance, Coinbase’s own income and profits, etc., support a $10 billion No problem, this is similar to Binance, and then multiplied by a premium in the US capital market, and then multiplied by a compliance premium, I think this price is actually not expensive at all.

< pt">Information bridge between China and the West

< pt">

Daniel: Speaking of it, I think you still have a very special identity. You have been in Europe and America for a long time, especially in the crypto space circle in the North American bay area Inside, at the same time you are well known in China.

So if someone wants to ask me, who can bring some relatively large things in China, or some important things to North America Over there, or bring the relatively big news from North America to China, and make everyone pay attention to it. Who is the most suitable channel for this channel? The first person I think of is you. It is very interesting that you are in this position, and this is not my own idea. I know some friends from European and American institutions and friends in the crypto circle, and they all think that you are the most suitable role.

What kind of a coincidence is this, have you thought about it?

Dovey: Actually, I don’t know either.

Of course I can talk about this matter in hindsight. I think it may be before 2016. I am more suitable as a bridge between China and the United States or at home and abroad, such as Wu Jihan, but due to some historical reasons, this matter cannot continue.

No matter what foreign countries say he betrayed, but I think this actually goes back to what we first said, why the domestic community It used to have such a big influence, but in the end it became closed and introverted.

Of course I have no conclusion, but I think this is related to the topic we just started talking about. On Bitcoin, I think we used to be the most influential group, from miners to exchanges, to various things, but after the fork, it was completely involved.

Daniel: Maybe there are political reasons?

Dovey: I think part of the reason is political

Daniel: Step by step, every time such a relatively large public event occurs, our right to speak and influence are going down in all aspects.

Dovey: Another person, Bobby Lee, he used to be a partner of BTC China and Yang Linke, we often chat, I found Although he originally worked on BTC China, it seems that he doesn't have such a deep understanding of these things in China. Of course, the first reason is that he is actually an American.

He originally worked as an engineer at Yahoo, and then returned to China to go to EMC. I find it very strange that many of them are in China or have Chinese Americans in China exposure, it seems that they didn't penetrate so deeply. I feel that if you don't have enough time to communicate with all these different circles in China, it is quite difficult to understand the logic and underlying thinking methods of both sides.

Daniel: Unless you have this condition, you can run on both sides, and run on both sides in a balanced manner.

Dovey: I don’t think this is actually a big obstacle. If you look at WeChat groups, there are already many communication methods like this Well, of course the simple answer is, I don't know why me, and I don't know.

Daniel: Anyway, it’s you, haha, you say it’s not me, the masses say no, it’s you (laughs)

This is a particularly interesting phenomenon I observed, and this situation is not the present, but the past and present, a long time ago, do you still remember the first time we communicated , it should be 2018 at that time.

Dovey: I remember I called you at home, I called you and Kevin at home.

Daniel: Yes, I remember. Then I remembered that it seemed to be at the end of 2018, when it was the blockchain week in Vientiane Shanghai, we had a small after party, and I met you face-to-face for the first time.

Dovey: I don't remember very well.

Daniel: It’s October 2018.

Dovey: Yeah, but I was very aware when we called.

Daniel: After that, I found out that we have a lot of mutual friends around us.

Dovey: Yes, yes. So I think this matter should be done by more people, and it shouldn't be back and forth. Why is it this person again, it shouldn't be like this.

Proof of Actual Work

Daniel: Yes, I wanted to talk more about your past experience today, but For time reasons, we have to control the topic. However, I also want to mention one thing, that is, your partner, and I have also dealt with him.

Dovey: Yes, Eric Meltzer

Daniel: I called him, and you have been very persistent in making a high-quality mail list for a long time.

Dovey: Right.

Daniel: Proof of Work.

Dovey: Proof of Actual Work.

Daniel: Yes, I read it carefully, and each issue has a lot of information.

Dovey: It’s actually a weekly newspaper.

Daniel: Yes, but the people who make the weekly report don’t think about the people who read the weekly report at all, and they can’t finish reading it in a week.

Dovey: That's what needs to be done at that time. Many public chains have now become zombie chains. We all know that we can talk about this next time. When we met last time, I was the first to ask you, so I asked this question. How to make the development of public chains Can the reader maintain a sense of accomplishment and positive feedback?

Because the entire community of public chains was very prosperous at that time, there were various public chains that we thought were good, and all public chains were very active at that time and made a lot of progress. The feeling of blooming flowers.

Daniel: At that time, the mail list you were working on was a rare one, and I could concentrate on overseas projects The content of what you are really doing, but it is a pity that you will not continue until the end of 2019.

Dovey: Do you know why it didn't continue?

Our mechanism needs them to submit by themselves, they need to submit their weekly update by themselves, because it is Proof of Actual Work , Many times you have to submit your GitHub commit, but by the second half of 2019, we found that many chains have become zombie chains.

Proof of Work later became Proof of Death, after which many public chains really died and became vegetative. At that time, Eric had a lot of things to do because the child was just born, so we said to stop for a while, and then see if it can be turned into something else.

Daniel: This is what I read carefully, because it is the lowest cost to quickly understand what colleagues are doing.

We know in our hearts that when you put a lot of energy into doing your own things, you tend to walk with your head down, and you don’t know how to look up Look at the way. Few people and channels in this world will help you look up the way. Most people like to pay attention to some application-level and PR-level things. Few people pay attention to the things at the Actual Work level you mentioned, so this channel rare.

Including Ethereum Weekly, in fact, I spend a lot of time watching it every week. And it's a pity that this thing was also abandoned by Consensys, and it is being continued by donations from various companies, which is not easy. I rely on this to follow up the progress of the entire Ethereum.

Dovey: That's very good, I've been watching it too. If I hadn't read this, I think I might have missed a lot of things in the DeFi wave.

Daniel: About a month or two ago, I wanted to talk to you urgently about DeFi, because DeFi is in the A very high level of heat.

I was also recording Forkit at the time, one day I went to see Shenyu, after I finished recording that night, I edited it overnight, Send it out the next day, and three days after sending it out, all the projects discussed in it are outdated, and you start to work on new projects (laughs), and then you are at a particularly good point, change the subject and tell everyone that you are going on vacation , This is coming to an end, the card is very accurate, this is an extremely wise approach.

Dovey: This is the tenacious vitality of an old leek, that's all I can say. (Laughs)

Daniel: I am not suitable to talk about how various DeFi products make money in public. Because I am a foundation, I have to talk about our foundation.

Dovey: Understood.

Daniel: So I went to find some suitable people to talk to, I agree, but I can't say (laughs)< /p>

Dovey: Yes.

< /pt">

Pick up

< /p>

Daniel: Today is very interesting, and at the end of the show, we have a repertoire, the delivery link.

Dovey: Bringing goods, yes.

Daniel: In the Pick up link at the end of our Fork It, what do you want to bring to everyone? I'm ready, do you want to speak first, or after me?

Dovey: Let me say first, I am a very nostalgic person, although everyone calls me Aunt Wan every day, my age may be different Bigger (laughs)

Daniel: Not big at all, frozen age.

Dovey: As a 30-year-old aunt, I'm still very nostalgic. In the past 30 years, except for China, the whole world has undergone many earth-shaking changes.

In the midst of many great changes, we actually don’t feel it, so I often do some nostalgic things. First of all, I especially like to read old magazines. I have been reading "New Weekly". "New Weekly" started in 2000, and every year it has a separate quotation, which I collect every year. For example, this year I will look back at the 2010. What I want to bring to you today is a very old book.

Daniel: A very old book?

Dovey: Yes, it may be difficult to buy. It is a collection of books called "Toward the year 2018".

Daniel: Is it 2018?

Dovey: No, this one is interesting, it’s a book from 50 years ago. 50 years ago, experts from all walks of life, some specialized in the environment, specialized in applied physics, specialized in various inventions, they wrote this book 50 years ago, I found this book at that time , very happy.

I finished reading this book at the end of 2018. It was very interesting while reading it. You seem to be in time machine. You'll see what people expected 50 years ago. So I would like to strongly recommend this book to everyone.

Daniel: What shock did it give you?

Dovey: That’s right, I found that everyone’s predictions are pretty much the same for all consumer electronics, including smartphones The emergence of biomedicine, but everyone's predictions for biomedicine are far from being achieved.

Daniel: Biomedicine is far from being achieved.

Dovey: Yes, so if you are interested, you can take a look. After you read it, you will find out which industry has exceeded people's expectations and which industry has not met people's expectations.

My personal point of view is that because information technology has indeed developed at an unimaginable speed in the past few decades, Peter Thiel said a word, "We wanted flying cars, instead we got 140 characters". In fact, since the first industrial revolution, people's technological progress, we often call it a Hockey Stick, like a hockey stick, It grows very fast, but in fact, we will find that in the past 50 years, only the information industry has met expectations, and the speed of aircraft is slower than 50 years ago.

Daniel: Yes, there was Concorde 40 years ago, but now there is no more.

Dovey: So I think this matter is actually worth thinking about. If you are interested, you can go and see it In this book, what experts from all walks of life 50 years ago looked forward to 50 years later.

Daniel: Will you write down your current expectations

Dovey: Yes, this is actually what I want to talk about. There is a service abroad, and I can send it to you Guoning later. You can set a time on the service, for example, I set 10 years later, and then you give it an email address, and it will send the things you wrote at that time to that email address 10 years later.

I like to do such a thing, I will use that service to write something from time to time, for example, for 5 years later To myself, it is equivalent to a reminder, for example, how many years after Bitcoin can rise to 100,000 US dollars, maybe at that time, the service will send me an email to see if your original assumption has come true. Interesting, like writing a letter to your future self.

Daniel: You mentioned this, I am a little bit emotional, I haven’t thought about what will happen in 2 or 3 years for too long For things, I always focus on this month, next month and next year, and I haven't thought about things 10 years later for too long. This is very interesting.

Okay, let me bring the goods instead.

In the past, I actually recommended some weird things. But because this period of time is relatively busy and life is relatively monotonous, I can only recommend some more commonplace things. I recommend American dramas. I know that many people have watched "The Queen's Gambit" recently, and the reviews were good. I also watched it. It was very enjoyable. But I think American dramas like "Queen's Gambit" are not worthy of special recommendation on Forkit. It's just a cool drama, and the heroine is very talented in chess.

Dovey: High IQ Mary Sue.

Daniel: Yes, it’s cool and fun to watch, but the one I want to recommend is The Mandalorian.

Dovey: The Mandalorian, right?

Daniel: "The Mandalorian" is a derivative play in the "Star Wars" system. recommended from an angle.

In "Star Wars", he is actually a small character after the leading actor and supporting actor. In the movie "The Great War", he may only appear in one or two shots, but he is very characteristic. He is a clone wearing a steel helmet and armor. In "Star Wars", a plot is that he was hit by the hero's rocket thruster on his back, and as a result, he was brought into the mouth of a monster, and he swallowed him with a single bite. He is in the main plot It's over, but around such a person and such a plot, a spin-off drama was formed, and two films were shot, which were particularly exciting.

You know what this reminds me of? In China, there is a plot very similar to this drama, which is the relationship between Ximen Qing and Jin Pingmei in "Water Margin". Ximen Qing appeared in "Water Margin" once or twice, and was finally stabbed to death by Wu Song. But you derived him into "Jin Ping Mei", I haven't watched it anyway (laughs), I don't know, I heard it is very exciting.

Dovey: Very high evaluation.

Daniel: The evaluation is extremely high, and the sequel to the recent big movie "Star Wars" is actually pulling the hips, and the evaluation is very low , but the "The Mandalorian" that Disney invested in is highly rated. I can describe to you the image of the male protagonist. He wears a steel helmet and armor, and then he doesn't speak, and you don't know what he looks like.

Dovey: Does he have no lines?

Daniel: There are very few lines. There is a slogan in "Star Wars", "May the force be with you". This sentence, you feel very classic.

Dovey: Very CX.

Daniel: Very CX, right? the way", a bit like the Japanese bushido spirit.

Dovey: People don't talk too much.

Daniel: Yes, people don’t talk too much, and the plot is that he went to protect a child, which is very old-fashioned.

Dovey: "Is this killer not too cold"?

Daniel: Yes, I thought of "This Killer Is Not So Cold", a child protected by a mercenary, the plot is also Very old-fashioned, this child has the Force, and he is a child in Master Yoda's group, so he looks very much like Master Yoda when he was a child, very cute and cute.

Dovey: Understood.

Daniel: The two races of the Mandalorian and Master Yoda are actually two races that are hostile to each other, but The male protagonist has been protecting the child and has gone a long way. When I was reading this passage, I thought of another book called "The Hero with a Thousand Faces". He explored the stories of heroes recorded in all human beings, and found that no matter what language or culture, these praises of heroes are actually It's all the same, there's a person who goes through a hero's journey, achieves self-improvement, then accomplishes the impossible, and returns.

Dovey: Right.

Daniel: For such a journey, the plot of "The Mandalorian" is also so old-fashioned.

Dovey: Understood.

Daniel: You see, it's "This Killer Is Not Too Cold", "The Hero's Journey" and Simon Derivatives of Qingpan Jinlian, all kinds of old-fashioned, why should I recommend it?

I think it looks really cool, and there are many challenges. There is a stalk in American dramas like this. There is a budget for American dramas to shoot 8 or 10 episodes. It often happens that the bulk of the budget is placed in the first few episodes, but in the last 10 minutes of the last episode, there will be an extremely shocking climax at the end. At the end of the season, we saw Skywalker, which was really shocking.

In addition, because it is about a journey, when you watch this drama, it is also related to your life stage , because we have been influenced by this kind of drama of life mileage since we were young, like "Saint Warrior", they are all heroes' journeys.

Dovey: Xiaoqiang fights monsters and upgrades, all of which are routines.

Daniel: But we actually need this kind of thing deep down in our hearts. His way of fighting monsters and upgrading will infect you and inspire you.

Dovey: Yes, everyone wants to be Superman.

Daniel: Yes, so this kind of fighting monsters and upgrading in various ways, you will still be very tired when you do it over and over again. Infected, except that 4 people walked 54,000 kilometers all the way to fight monsters and upgrades, and finally got a set of scriptures. I think that is boring, but other monsters and upgrades are very happy.

Dovey: Right.

Daniel: Yes, anyway, I strongly recommend The Mandalorian.

Dovey: I've bookmarked it. Then I found a Weibo post I posted in 2018, the book just now, "Toward the year 2018", which was written in 1968, did not predict anything related to encrypted digital currency at all. side things.

Daniel: In fact, it is very interesting to predict what will happen to cryptocurrencies in 10 years.

Dovey: Yes, actually I think the most disruptive things are impossible to predict, or we learn from another Thinking about it, I read this book he wrote 50 years ago. What it predicts is actually meaningless, but what it does not predict.

Daniel: This is interesting, life is full of surprises.

Dovey: Yes, you can't look at the intersection, you have to look at something other than the intersection.

Daniel: OK, I'll go back and find this book. Well, today we have a book and an American drama, thank you for listening.

Dovey: Thank you everyone, thank you Guoning.

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