Original Article Title: Kyle Samani: Forward and onwards - the job is not done with Solana

Original Article Source: Mable Jiang

Original Article Translation: Ismay, BlockBeats

Editor's Note: As the wave of Decentralized Autonomous Treasury (DAT) continues to ferment, Solana has seen a renewed focus on capital and narrative. Kyle Samani, Co-Founder and Partner at Multicoin Capital, recently took on a new role as the Chairman of Forward Industries, driving a $1.65 billion PIPE financing to inject a "Solana digital asset treasury" strategic into this publicly listed Nasdaq company. For him, this is not just a financial engineering in the capital markets, but also a frontier experiment of the "Internet Capital Markets" vision. Whether through DeFi and M&A to amplify "earnings per SOL," or exploring on-chain governance, on-chain dividends, and on-chain shareholder structure, Kyle seeks to answer a question—can a U.S. public company native to the chain, reshape the global capital markets with Solana as its foundation?

The following is the full interview:

Mable Jiang: Hello everyone, welcome to the latest episode of the Backwave Podcast. I am your host Mable. Today, I am delighted to have a special guest, who actually was also the opening guest when I did my first crypto podcast—Kyle Samani.

Kyle Samani: Mable, thank you very much for inviting me again. I remember this should be my second time participating in your podcast show. I am glad to meet everyone here. I am Kyle Samani, the Co-Founder and Managing Partner of Multicoin Capital. We are a U.S.-based SEC-registered investment advisory firm, and we will be almost eight years old this year, specifically on October 1st.

We currently manage around $3 billion to $4 billion in assets, covering hedge funds and a series of venture capital funds. Just a few days ago, I also just became the Chairman of Forward Industries, a company listed on Nasdaq.

This week, we announced a very exciting transaction: Multicoin jointly initiated and participated in a $1.65 billion PIPE investment, which was officially completed last Wednesday. As part of the transaction, Forward Industries added a significant strategic direction beyond its core business—to build a Solana digital asset treasury company. We are very much looking forward to working on this with the Forward team, as well as our colleagues at Jump, Galaxy, and Multicoin.

From Multicoin to Forward, Kyle's "Dual Identity" Turning Point

Mable Jiang: Awesome! I intentionally didn't mention your title at the beginning because you are now both a Managing Partner at Multicoin and the Chairman of the Board at Forward Industries. Before diving into details, let me start with a simple question. If someone wants to buy Forward's stock in the secondary market, what kind of exposure are they actually getting?

Kyle Samani: That's a very interesting question.

Forward Industries is a Nasdaq-listed company with the stock symbol FORD, which can be a bit confusing with Ford Motor Company whose ticker is F. O. R. D. So, when you buy Forward Industries' stock, what you mainly get is our strategic exposure on the Solana digital asset treasury.

After completing the transaction last Wednesday, the company has already started buying SOL. I think by the time this podcast is released, we will also publicly disclose the specific SOL holdings, so stay tuned. In fact, I personally have also invested $25 million in Forward. I'm very excited about this opportunity because as a public company, we have the opportunity to "earn SOL per share" more than just buying SOL itself.

The most direct way is to actively participate in DeFi. One of the biggest differences between Solana and Bitcoin is its thriving DeFi ecosystem, bringing together various protocols. We are fortunate that, with my role at Multicoin, we have invested in almost all core projects in this ecosystem and are very familiar with the founding teams. So, we are now in discussions with these teams for collaboration, where not only can we earn native yield by depositing assets, but also secure additional incentives and revenue share for our shareholders.

We believe this is a win-win for both parties. It's obviously good for shareholders and also beneficial for those DeFi protocols. Since we are a public company, these DeFi protocols in the future can claim that their system is being actively used by a Nasdaq-listed company, which itself brings additional value. So the first aspect is to leverage our scale, brand, and reputation to negotiate these partnerships.

Secondly, we are trying to enhance shareholders' "per SOL earnings" through capital market arbitrage. What does this mean? In the U.S., you can currently get a 4% to 5% loan from a bank. Of course, it is uncertain whether we can fully access this, but we will definitely try our best. Even if the final loan cost is at 7%, 8%, or even 9%, we will accept it. We will take out a USD loan, not for leverage, but to deploy these USD funds into Solana's DeFi ecosystem and other USD-denominated strategies.

I believe that this operation can yield an annualized return of over 15%. This way, we can convert this arbitrage space into shareholder profits. I am very excited about this point, and this is exactly the advantage granted to us by the flexibility of a public company.

Thirdly, the direction we are very excited about is mergers and acquisitions (M&A). Currently, in ecosystems such as Solana, Ethereum, Bitcoin, Avalanche, and Sushi, there are approximately 30 to 40 digital asset treasury companies operating. However, in the long run, the likelihood of all these companies surviving is very small.

And we happen to have a "dream team" combination: Multicoin, Galaxy, and Jump. We have deep trading experience, liquidity management experience, market-making experience, the scale advantage of our balance sheet, and some of the most important resources in the entire crypto industry as our counterparts. Furthermore, with Multicoin's status as a top-tier VC, bringing these three parties together has already put us in the best position for M&A. With our existing balance sheet, we are fully capable of acquiring other digital asset treasury companies, whether they are focused on Solana or not.

I believe there is a huge opportunity here to continue bringing higher "per SOL earnings" to shareholders. These are some of the directions we will focus on in the coming weeks and months.

Mable Jiang: This $1.65 billion financing subscription, was it exactly at this scale, or did market demand actually exceed this figure?

Kyle Samani: Market demand far exceeded $1.65 billion. We had to exclude many people and reduce the allocation of some participants before finally settling on this scale. In this transaction, we were very careful about the shareholder structure we chose. We hope that shareholders are not only those who have a long-term bullish view on Solana but also those who understand our team's background and truly understand the goals we aim to achieve.

Of course, there is an opportunity for financial engineering here, but more importantly, this is also an opportunity to build the "next-generation perpetual capital instrument," which has the potential to become one of the most interesting companies globally. And we are also very fortunate to be able to select a group of long-term shareholders who trust and support us in this transaction.

Mable Jiang: Can you reveal the overall subscription demand for this round?

Kyle Samani: I'm afraid I can't disclose that, but I can tell you that many people were very dissatisfied because they couldn't get an allocation.

Mable Jiang: Understood. You mentioned an interesting point earlier. You said you would also consider acquiring digital asset treasury companies not solely focused on Solana. Could you expand on that?

Kyle Samani: In fact, the most crucial asset of these digital asset treasury companies is their balance sheet, with almost no intangible assets and not much enterprise value in itself. Frankly speaking, the team strength of most companies is also far below ours.

So I anticipate a situation in the future like this: Suppose a company's assets are worth $100, and we might transact at a valuation of $140 or $150. Another digital asset treasury company, whether Solana-related or not, may only be at the level of $80, $90, or $100.

This valuation gap implies arbitrage opportunities, benefiting both sets of shareholders. For example, if we complete an M&A deal at the $110 level (just an example here), both the acquiring and acquired shareholders would benefit. I believe the market will quickly realize that this is actually the only inevitable outcome.

At the same time, the market will quickly see who the real winners are. This ultimately depends on the team's capital allocation ability, the ability to reach shareholder-friendly deals, and execution. And in these aspects, I am very confident in our positioning.

Mable Jiang: Got it. Let's now discuss your governance responsibilities as Chairman. Specifically, what responsibilities do you have in the Chairman role? And what is the role of an observer?

Kyle Samani: For me, currently the most important work in progress is building a complete management team for this new treasury business. It should be clarified that Forward Industries' existing core business is still the design business, which will continue to be led by CEO Mike Pruitt and will not change.

In addition, the company has added a brand new business line, which is the Solana Treasury Business. This is an independent business line with little synergy with the existing business, so we need a dedicated management team to lead it. Therefore, we are actively recruiting the core executive team for this new business line, including a CEO, CFO, and a range of other positions. If you believe you are a good fit, we are very open to discussing these roles with you. Whether it's in research, marketing, operations, finance, or the core management team (C-Suite), we are looking for all positions required to run this business. So, if you are interested, please be sure to reach out to us.

Therefore, as the Chairman, my most important task is to help find the right CEO and build this management team. This naturally takes some time. During this period, I will work closely with the Galaxy Asset Management team to guide Forward Industries' treasury strategy. Galaxy Asset Management is a department within Galaxy that operates independently. It is a registered investment advisory firm with direct fiduciary responsibility to Forward Industries to execute the specific strategies we have decided to adopt.

So, I will work with the Galaxy Asset Management team to develop the strategic direction, while the actual execution — whether it's custody, on-chain transactions, off-chain transactions, etc. — will be managed and carried out by Galaxy's team.

Mable Jiang: So, from the observer side, their role is mainly to approve the decisions you make, right?

Kyle Samani: Well, not entirely. Under the arrangements of the asset management agreement, Galaxy Asset Management has a certain level of autonomy when managing the balance sheet. The company's board of directors and CEO Mike provide guidance and expectations to Galaxy. Galaxy then develops an execution plan based on these requirements, communicates with us for confirmation, reaches agreement, and then proceeds with the specific execution. So, it's more like a "supervision and collaboration" relationship rather than direct command.

Mable Jiang: I see. So, what is the role of the Multicoin team in this?

Kyle Samani: Over the past few weeks, the Multicoin team has indeed provided a lot of assistance in investment and DeFi strategies. However, as we establish a localized management team for Forward Industries, the involvement of other Multicoin members is expected to decrease significantly.

Capital Structure and Revenue Logic of Forward

Mable Jiang: You clearly take a very proactive approach to company operations. For some audience members who may not be familiar with PIPEs, convertible bonds, or ATM financing, could you explain why you chose the PIPE structure?

Kyle Samani: The PIPE structure is actually the easiest way for us to transact with Forward Industries. They are very supportive of this structure, and we also agree with it. Moreover, PIPE itself is very "lightweight." The entire financing process only took two weeks. Frankly, this was my first time doing this type of transaction, and I didn't expect it to be completed so quickly. This also indirectly reflects the strong market demand for our tool, as we completed a $1.65 billion financing in just two weeks.

Looking ahead, the PIPE has been completed, and we will also consider other financing options in the future. We may engage in At-The-Market (ATM) offerings, which is a very direct strategy pioneered by Michael Saylor. As for other tools, the one we currently value most is the "perpetual preferred stock" structure, which is a product launched by Strategy in the past three to four months.

This perpetual preferred stock is very interesting; its nominal yield is higher than that of convertible bonds, but the principal never needs to be repaid. For a company whose primary assets are the balance sheet and limited cash flow, this is very advantageous. If a three-year convertible bond is issued, when it matures in three years and needs to be refinanced, the company may face difficulties if interest rates are high or asset prices have fallen significantly. However, perpetual preferred stock has a fixed dividend but no maturity date, which is a significant advantage for a company like Strategy that has almost no cash flow.

What's even more interesting is that by building our digital asset treasury company on Solana, we can obtain two very different types of cash flow. The first type is income denominated in SOL, which is the return obtained from staking, a very direct source of income currently yielding approximately 8% annually. The second type is investing SOL in DeFi to generate additional returns. The third type is DeFi income denominated in USD. As I mentioned earlier, we hope to borrow USD and invest these dollars in Solana's DeFi to achieve higher returns.

Then use this income to pay interest. For example, the Strategy currently pays 9% interest on its perpetual preferred stock. And through the most basic SOL staking, we can achieve approximately 8% yield. If we add other operations on top of that, I optimistically believe our overall yield is expected to exceed 9%, possibly reaching 11%. In this way, even if we issue perpetual preferred stock, we can still cover interest of over 9%.

Of course, I don't yet know if the market will accept a 9% interest rate level; this requires observation. Bitcoin is obviously more mature than Solana, but on the flip side, Bitcoin does not generate any cash flow. So, seeing how investors in perpetual preferred stock will view this risk exposure will be quite interesting. However, I am confident to say that, given Forward Industries' cash flow structure, we are more capable than Strategy to manage perpetual preferred stock, convertible bonds, or other debt instruments. Because we can directly access the native yield of Solana and the DeFi ecosystem, this is very exciting.

Mable Jiang: This is also what you wrote about in your article, that you believe the structure of convertible bonds and perpetual preferred stock is more suitable for Solana's digital asset treasury company. I understand that. But you just mentioned one point which I'd like to challenge a bit: Solana's native yield is indeed good; even just by staking, it reaches a level of 7% to 8%. But for most listeners, they all know that the lending market on Solana is actually not that developed. So, the yield in stablecoin terms on Solana may not be too strong. Where will you find these yields?

Kyle Samani: For example, if you lend funds on Kamino, currently the level is only about 4% to 5%, so you're right, it's not very high. But we believe the more interesting USD-denominated yields mainly come from some Vault strategies. Like JLP, and there are some Drift Vaults managed by teams like Gauntlet, with yields around 15%, some even as high as 25%.

Mable Jiang: I noticed that your funding only accepted cash and did not accept any in-kind tokens. So where did you purchase Solana from?

Kyle Samani: That's right. The $1.65 billion in funding all came in the form of US dollars. We accepted bank wire transfers, USDC, and USDT, but did not accept any form of Solana or other crypto assets, whether circulating or locked-up Solana, none were included in the PIPE. As for how Forward Industries acquired SOL, it was entirely through direct purchases on the open market.

In the future, if there is a suitable strategic opportunity, we may also acquire locked-up SOL. However, so far, we have only bought circulating SOL on the open market.

Mable Jiang: Do you have an expectation for the ratio of locked-up SOL to circulating SOL?

Kyle Samani: I do not have a specific expectation. The only reference I can provide is: I do not believe that a significant portion of the company's balance sheet will be allocated to illiquid assets.

Mable Jiang: The so-called locked-up SOL in the market is mainly the portion sold by the foundation in the past, right?

Kyle Samani: Currently, there are indeed only two types of locked-up SOL that are truly available for purchase. One type comes from transactions by the Solana Foundation, and the other is from taking over the locked-up SOL from those who originally purchased the FTX bankruptcy assets. These are the only two main sources remaining. Of course, we are actively evaluating these two channels as well.

Solana Treasury and Internet Capital Market Vision

Mable Jiang: Well. Let's talk about on-chain investment opportunities. Apart from Solana's native yield, such as the MEV-related aspect, what other directions are you looking at?

Kyle Samani: Yes. In fact, there are a large number of excellent DeFi teams on Solana. For example, Gito, Sanctum, Kamino, Drift, Exponent, Dflow, Jupiter, and more. Many teams provide opportunities priced in SOL as well as in USD. We will deploy funds from the company's balance sheet into these strategies priced in both SOL and USD.

Mable Jiang: In terms of auditing, will there be an independent process to audit smart contracts? Or will you solely rely on the audit results already released by the teams?

Kyle Samani: We will definitely have a rigorous process to review the contracts before investing funds. I can tell you that Forward Industries' process combines the risk control and review systems of Jump, Galaxy, and Multicoin, which were originally independent. In other words, we can extract the essence from the experience of these three parties, absorb their opinions on risk management and contract review, and develop a set of more comprehensive and precise rules and guidelines.

Mable Jiang: So, will transforming Forward Industries' assets into on-chain tokenized collateral be one of your priorities?

Kyle Samani: Yes. I'd like to address this question first from a broader perspective, Mable. Obviously, we have the opportunity to provide additional per-share SOL returns to shareholders. However, I believe that solely for this reason, it is not sufficient to justify our dedication of so much time and effort to drive this project forward. As everyone knows, I am one of Solana's earliest seed investors, maintaining a very close relationship with Solana from day one and being a staunch supporter of Solana for many years.

I believe the most important thing Forward Industries is doing is proving that a U.S. publicly traded company can achieve "native on-chain operation." This includes not only operational aspects at the capital market level, such as tokenizing the company's equity issuance into on-chain tokenized stocks, but also on-chain fundraising, on-chain dividends, on-chain shareholder governance. In other words, everything you can do on Nasdaq, we hope to accomplish on Solana in the future, and we are willing to be pioneers in doing these things.

On a day-to-day operational level, we also hope that all transactions can take place on-chain. This means on-chain transactions, on-chain revenues, on-chain payroll, on-chain supplier payments, and so on. Although many of these cannot be fully realized today, this is our vision.

Of course, many of these things depend on the support of service providers, such as custodians, transfer agents, and other relevant institutions. Fortunately, with our scale, volume, brand, and network, we have the ability to exert pressure on these service providers to unlock new features. In this way, we can prove to the world that a publicly traded company can indeed seamlessly move all these processes to the chain. And our goal is, after we have paved the way, to make it easier for the next company, and the next one after that, to accomplish the same things on-chain.

Mable Jiang: Oh, I have another question that I forgot to ask before, which Yano actually mentioned. The committed fund's capital will not be used to purchase Solana directly from Galaxy or Multicoin, right?

Kyle Samani: That's correct. Forward Industries will never directly purchase SOL held by Multicoin, Galaxy, or Jump, whether circulating or locked up.

Mable Jiang: Got it. Building on that, will you consider operating your own validation node?

Kyle Samani: Yes, we are currently preparing to set up our own validation node, and we expect to publicly announce relevant news soon.

Mable Jiang: What are your thoughts on Solana's native yield? I know Tushar and Vishal have been pushing SIMD228, attempting to adjust the yield distribution mechanism. How do you view this?

Kyle Samani: Earlier this year, Multicoin Capital, where I am part of, submitted a formal governance proposal for the Solana network, known as SIMD228. This proposal aimed to reduce Solana network's inflation rate and enable its programmatic and dynamic adjustment based on on-chain variables.

This was a highly controversial proposal that ultimately did not pass. The governance vote required 66% support to pass, and in the end, it only received about 62%, very close, but still a failure. Looking back, I have a few thoughts:

First, I am glad to have gone through this process, as it provided me with a better understanding of the various stakeholders in the Solana community;

Second, the entire discussion was very valuable;

Third, I have since changed my position. At the time of the vote, I was in favor of SIMD228, but now, as the Chairman of Forward Industries, I believe that SIMD228 is not the optimal choice for the Solana network.

The reason being that many people are actually more concerned about nominal yield, and SIMD228 would reduce nominal yield. One thing I've learned in life is that you must first understand the rules of the game you are participating in, and then find the optimal solution within that framework. There is always a balance between idealism and reality, and I now better appreciate the underlying logic of the game I am in.

Mable Jiang: This is actually similar to Lily's view at the time. She said Solana is still in a rapid growth stage and needs high yields to attract people.

Kyle Samani: Yes, it's funny because I met Lily in person last week. I gave her a hug, saying, "Lily, you were right."

Mable Jiang: Interesting, I'm glad we brought up this topic. I didn't know previously that you had changed your mind. This is important because it will indeed affect Forward Industries' strategy and direction.

Kyle Samani: Exactly.

Mable Jiang: That's great to hear. I had a private conversation with Tushar before about DAT, and at that time (about two months ago), he mentioned that you thought the DAT craze would pass, but soon after, you announced new initiatives. So I assume there must have been some internal discussions, how did you change your mind?

Kyle Samani: Actually, just two months ago, my view on DAT was primarily based on observing Bitcoin DAT. Bitcoin DAT itself has no cash flow and cannot tap into the native DeFi ecosystem.

Another key reason that truly changed my mind was a speech given by SEC Chairman Paul Atkins on July 31 under the title Project Crypto. In his speech, he clearly stated: "We need to move the U.S. securities markets onto the blockchain."

As I reflected more on this speech, I realized that as the chairman of a public company, this is one of the most important things I can do to help Chairman Atkins achieve his vision. Although I didn't grasp this within five minutes of reading the speech (ideally I wish I had immediately understood), eventually, I did. This made me realize that we really have the opportunity to bring the future into reality because the SEC Chairman has already told us that this is what needs to be done.

Mable Jiang: That makes a lot of sense, and I think this leads to my next question. I saw Mike Novogratz mention in a CNBC interview that Solana can handle more transactions, including stocks, fixed income, commodities, and network transactions. So, does Solana now have the infrastructure to settle global securities transactions?

Kyle Samani: I was fortunate to know Anatoly and Raj from the earliest days and led their seed investment in 2018. It can be said that they had a clear "North Star" goal from the beginning. Initially, Solana's North Star vision was referred to as the "Decentralized NASDAQ." However, over time, this vision has evolved in branding.

The current version is now referred to as the "Internet Capital Market." It essentially continues the same core idea but presents it in a more forward-looking manner rather than looking back. The term "Decentralized Nasdaq" itself carries a strong sense of looking back, referencing a company that has existed for 50 years; whereas the "Internet Capital Market" is a future-oriented, idealistic vision.

Throughout this process, we have realized that Solana can currently process over 10 billion transactions per day. If you look at the daily transaction volume of the world's major regulated financial exchanges, you'll find that it is far below this scale.

Of course, market makers will post a large number of limit orders and cancel them. Here, I am referring to the actual transaction volume after excluding canceled orders. If you look at the daily transaction volume of major global markets such as the New York Stock Exchange (NYSE), Nasdaq, Chicago Mercantile Exchange (CME), London Stock Exchange (LSE), Singapore Exchange, etc., the total is also less than 10 billion. This fact made us suddenly realize: wait, even though Solana still has various flaws and issues to address today, it can already settle all global securities transactions. This is a stunning discovery and underscores the enormous opportunity ahead.

So when we talk about the future of the Internet Capital Market, and when we discuss what scale we actually need to expand to, we are particularly excited. Because this means Solana has the potential to become a global trading engine that can handle settlement for all securities transactions worldwide, not just stocks but also commodities, foreign exchange, and even more assets.

Mable Jiang: You just mentioned that the total daily transactions of all traditional financial markets are also less than 10 billion. Does this mean that on Solana, almost everything can be traded? Not just stocks or equities, but also commodities, and so on?

Kyle Samani: Exactly, this is the vision of the Internet Capital Market—to build a globally unified system that is permissionless and operates 24/7. Anyone, with just a smartphone and an internet connection, can trade any asset through any software.

When you describe it this way, it's actually a very intuitive, simple concept. For digital natives, this is almost the expected future mode of operation. But today's financial system does not operate like this at all—except for cryptocurrencies, there is no financial market that operates this way. Even within the crypto space, there is still a gap from this ideal.

Once you see this kind of future, you can no longer "unsee" it. I am very optimistic that one day, the global financial infrastructure will operate on top of the Internet Capital Market.

How Do You View Content Coins, Pump Liveliness, and Other New Phenomena in the Crypto World?

Mable Jiang: It seems you weren't particularly optimistic about "long-tail asset trading" before?

Kyle Samani: No, quite the contrary, long-tail assets are actually the fundamental driving force behind the development of the capital markets today. For example, I certainly wouldn't consider Bitcoin a long-tail asset now, but 10 years ago, Bitcoin was a typical long-tail asset. Seven years ago, Ethereum was also a long-tail asset. Solana's market cap has now exceeded $100 billion, and I wouldn't call it a long-tail asset anymore.

However, the fact is, people create 10,000, 20,000, even 30,000, 40,000 new assets on the Solana chain every day. So, yes, it is these long-tail assets that have brought us to where we are today, and this trend clearly will not stop. People will continue to enjoy the fun of inventing new assets. But the real, real, real opportunity lies in moving those traditional assets that people already want to trade—securities, commodities, foreign exchange, derivatives, and so on—to Solana for trading.

Mable Jiang: The reason I had that impression is that I remember in May of this year, we talked about "Content Coins," and you didn't seem to agree with that point of view.

Kyle Samani: That's right, based on my current understanding, I am still quite skeptical of content coins overall. Of course, content coins come in many design forms, so it may be that my view is too one-sided.

My biggest concern with content coins is that any specific piece of content itself is highly time-sensitive and ephemeral, making it difficult to sustain long-term value. I tend to believe that if you are going to issue tokens tied to an author's work or output, it is best to bind them to something that reflects long-term value, not just a momentary piece of content.

Mable Jiang: I see. In fact, you wrote a post in July where you mentioned that you believe neither Zora nor Pump has yet resolved the "inherent conflict between trading and entertainment."

Kyle Samani: Yes, taking a step back, I think "Entertainment Finance" is a very clever and wonderful concept that is extremely powerful on a psychological level. The concept of entertainment is very intuitive—whether you like comedy or drama, "entertainment" is easily understood. And finance has a large audience; the opportunity to make money itself is exciting. Not everyone likes risks, but for those enthusiastic about risks, finance is clearly attractive.

Therefore, for a considerable part of the population, Entertainment Finance is extremely attractive. In my opinion, the earliest form of "Entertainment Finance" in human history was actually Jim Cramer. I believe he is the 1.0 version of Entertainment Finance. Of course, I know many crypto people might laugh at him, and I used to laugh at him too.

However, I have gradually learned to appreciate him because he was the first person to create this model. And now we are in the early stages of Entertainment Finance 2.0. Entertainment Finance 2.0 is more like Roaring Kitty (the GameStop guy) or Dave Portnoy. You may remember, he held a green hammer, had an almost daily YouTube show called "Davey Day Trader Global." Today, on platforms like Pump, thousands of people go live every day.

And the core service they provide is actually Entertainment Finance. I believe this direction is on the brink of an explosion. I would also draw a parallel with sports here, especially sports betting. If you ask people who love to bet why they love it, they would say: I love football, and I also love financial risk. Combining these two things feels very natural.

And it has a clear binary outcome that can be revealed in one or two hours. This mechanism makes it very easy for people to get addicted. So, going back to your question, platforms like Zora and Pump are essentially trying to create Entertainment Finance 2.0, 3.0. The core service they provide is actually Entertainment Finance. In my opinion, some form of live streaming is highly likely to become the breakthrough of Entertainment Finance 2.0.

This past weekend, Pump indeed had its moment in the spotlight, whether it can sustain it remains to be seen. I do not have a particularly strong judgment in this regard. It certainly has potential and is exciting, but it is still too early. However, I do believe that live streaming is a key part because it can bring the broadcaster and the audience interaction together. That unpredictable, heart-hitting, real, and raw feeling is something that you cannot replace with carefully selected seven or eight photos and filters. Such things are more like Instagram, very polished but not authentic enough.

So, I think this "authenticity" is very important. Overall, I tend to be optimistic about the direction of live streaming.

As the Chairman of Forward, I will be exploring many ideas like this. Forward's mission is to stand at the forefront of the internet capital market, and I believe live streaming is an indispensable part of it. I will also view sports betting from a similar perspective—it makes sports more exciting and appealing, which is the essence of "Entertainment Finance."

Mable Jiang: So what is your ideal vision of Pump? Because I feel like you are actually quite excited about Pump.

Kyle Samani: I have always been known for "analogical reasoning," so I will use an analogy to answer your question. I believe the bullish vision of Pump is: TikTok with tokens, or Twitch with tokens, or a combination of both.

Mable Jiang: TikTok does indeed sound a bit more sexy. Pump's co-founder has recently done a lot of interviews. I heard one of his interviews with Laura Shin, where he clearly stated that the prediction markets will not succeed and will not dominate the mainstream market share in this model. What do you think? What are your thoughts on Kalshi and Polymarket?

Kyle Samani: I agree with that assessment. However, Multicoin is actually an investor in Kalshi. I was skeptical of prediction markets for a long time, but I did a 180 at the beginning of this year. I am very lucky to know Kalshi's two founders, Tarek and Luana; they are truly excellent entrepreneurs. I remember one of Pump's co-founders, I don't know if it was Alon or Noah, said that.

I think it was Noah. But I think that statement implies an "either/or" exclusivity, and I do not agree. I think they can coexist. There are a lot of people in the market, especially those who are wealthy and want to make large trades.

They tend to take risks or hedge risks in a very objective way. The psychological characteristics of this group of people are completely different from those who interact in live broadcasts with hosts and bet along with them.

So I do not agree with comparing the two. They correspond to two completely different psychological profiles and serve completely different functions. Of course, they can be combined in some scenarios. For example, can the host clear the bar? Can they win the game? Can they complete the obstacle course in 5 minutes? These are examples of the integration of prediction markets and live broadcasting.

But when I think of prediction markets, I am more inclined to think of questions like: Will the Fed lower interest rates? Who will die in the next season of "The White Lotus"? These more significant questions are truly the domain of prediction markets.

Mable Jiang: Some things are deterministic, while some people are chasing massive returns. Of course, predicting the market will not give you that kind of permanent gain.

Kyle Samani: I mean, if you want to make money on something like a Pump, there are actually many methods. There are indeed common elements such as speed, analytical ability, and some quantitative elements. But another part is "vision" - can you see a meme in a livestream, and then have a very intuitive understanding of current culture and society, perceiving what is happening. Maybe AI will be able to do this in the future, theoretically the masters of AI will be able to make such judgments, but assuming they have not done so yet, this judgment will always be very subjective. Questions like "Will the Fed cut interest rates on Thursday?" have no subjective component. I think these are two completely different audiences.

Mable Jiang: Yeah, I agree. This is how the Internet seems to manifest itself in Pump. So let me change the topic: can we talk about some mistakes you have made in the past three years, can you mention a few?

Kyle Samani: We have made many mistakes. I have told many people about this. In July 2024, at the Republican National Convention in Milwaukee, I met Tarek, the founder of Kalshi. I remember chatting with him at the time, and I said, buddy, how are you going to compete with Polymarket? You will face so many regulatory issues, it will slow you down.

He said, you don't understand, I have my vision. I thought, okay, it's up to you. Then I didn't really stop to listen to his vision - that was my mistake. Later, I met an absolute A+ entrepreneur who was doing something related to prediction markets, either directly or indirectly related to crypto, obviously this is a financial matter. At that time, I didn't delve into how much regulatory work they had already done. A few months later, I met Tarek again and made the same mistake.

The third time we met, I realized: wait, this person is very interesting. But the problem is I didn't act fast enough. That was one of the most serious mistakes I have made in Multicoin's history - not acting quickly enough after meeting Tarek.

Mable Jiang: Wow, that's a very harsh self-assessment. Do you have the same feeling about Ethena?

Kyle Samani: You know, actually Guy's story is quite interesting. Guy is now the DeFi space's most outstanding founder, without a doubt. I have recently been getting to know him gradually, and I am also serving as an advisor to their new project. Multicoin also holds some ENA. Going back to the Ethena seed round, about three or four years ago, we were actually on the schedule as well.

At that time, Vinny reached out to us, saying he had a meeting scheduled for Monday. But before that, on Friday, he met with Dragonfly, and on that day, the people from Dragonfly handed him a term sheet. According to Guy's later account to us, the terms were so good that he couldn't refuse, so he had already signed before our call.

So, I can't really say if this was my mistake, if I messed up, or if it was just plain bad luck. But then again, I have to admit that the folks at Dragonfly did indeed play it well. Ethena is clearly a great success now, and Guy is also doing great. I'm happy to be on the Ethena train now; I just wish I had boarded it earlier.

Mable Jiang: Of course. I asked about Ethena because I know Multicoin has always had an investment thesis in algorithmic stablecoins. We believed in this logic coming true someday, it was just a matter of who would do it. So, I found this quite intriguing.

Kyle Samani: Yes, repeating, let's give a round of applause to Dragonfly. They saw an opportunity, identified the founder, and hit the bullseye.

Mable Jiang: What do you think were the most correct decisions made in the past three years?

Kyle Samani: One that is clearly obvious is sticking to being bullish on Solana during the FTX crisis. That was a really tough time, there was hardly anything to compare it to. Another one is choosing to stay in this game. My thought is simple: the mission is not yet accomplished.

Mable Jiang: The toughest moment.

Kyle Samani: Yes, I now very clearly realize that blockchains like Solana have the opportunity to drive the internet capital markets, replace the global financial and payment systems. This entire transformation will be a generational effort on a global scale.

I am very excited about Solana, and I have no doubt that it will succeed. But clearly, the mission is far from complete; in fact, we are still far from it. So, "mission incomplete," and I will stay to see it through.

Mable Jiang: What about the other members of the Multicoin team? What new challenges and areas are you exploring now?

Kyle Samani: We are starting to expand into some adjacent areas. Recently, we made a significant investment in a quantum computing company, are also exploring some AI-related initiatives, and have invested in projects in the telecom space. We believe that telecom will ultimately re-converge with crypto, but that narrative is still evolving.

So we are still focused on entrepreneurs who dare to tackle huge and difficult problems. Of course, we are still a very crypto-native fund, but if we see attractive opportunities, even if they are not directly related to crypto, we will get involved. I think we will probably make a few of these investments each year now.

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