What did V God, Gavin Wood and Juan Benet talk about in the Wanxiang Summit roundtable forum?

Rhythm BlockBeats news, on October 27, the 6th Global Blockchain Summit hosted by Wanxiang Blockchain was held in Shanghai. At the meeting, V God, the founder of Ethereum, Gavin Wood (Lin Jiawen), the founder of Polkadot, Juan Benet, the founder of Protocol Labs, and Qu Junjie, the chief technology officer of PlatON, the moderator, discussed the technical innovation of the public chain in the roundtable forum. The full text is as follows :

Qu Junjie: I am very happy to have the opportunity to discuss public chain technology today. As you all know, this round table is a very luxurious panel, and all the panel guests are very famous, so I won't introduce them, and get straight to the point.

The three of them have given us a very wonderful speech. First, let me introduce myself. I am Qu Junjie, Chief Technology Officer of PlatON. PlatON is The public chain blockchain was released on October 24, 2014. I hope that the three of you can come up with three main points of view.

For example Vitalik is a block, Gavin Wood is a block, Juan Benet is a block.

Vitalik:Blockchain, Encryption The technology system is the development of the ecosystem, and we need to work together to create a win-win ecosystem. The value comes not only from a single application, but from the connections between applications. Looking forward to seeing the interaction between different blockchains and different applications, and finally reaching a more harmonious and win-win ecosystem.

Juan Benet: There are a few points:

Everyone is looking forward to the development of the blockchain ecosystem. There are many applications on the system. You can see that there are different blockchains created, and there are different applications on the system . More and more developers have joined the platform, and now Web3 is also developing very fast, and great progress has been made in smart contracts, computing models, cloud computing, and data storage.

The interaction and connection between all chains can further promote the generation of next-generation applications. We need to be ready for a new era.

Gavin Wood:Three points:

First, we have been discussing for several years that "data is going to be a very important element".

Second, economic sovereignty. In 2014 and 2015, there were developments in smart contracts and different platforms, but most of the time sovereignty is full-time rather than very economic. be diluted in the future.

Third, regarding the future development of the blockchain, I hope to deliver solutions, but due to constant changes, there is no very large and comprehensive solution. I believe that we need to continue to develop. If we want to provide better applications and better systems, we need to change our attitude.

Qu Junjie:All three of you Very famously, you represent three different "universes". Vitalik is Ethereum; Gavin Wood is Polkadot; Juan Benet is Filecoin.

Blockchain is a deep-water area, and many applications continue to expand into traditional business areas. Now the public chain is very hot, and different applications have been established on it, such as DeFi and other ecosystems. There is also a lot going on on the Filecoin platform.

My first question is about the upgradeability and scalability of the public chain, how to make the blockchain face the ever-growing industry trend.

This time we can start with Gavin first.

Gavin Wood: Solving the consensus problem is It is not so easy in the decentralized world, mainly due to two points:

(1) How to change the system;

(2) How to implement the change.

First generation systems may not have answered these questions well, so that is why we sometimes find it hard to make decisions when implementing changes. Unlike a centralized system, where changes are easier to implement, in a decentralized system there are many things to consider.

More needs to be considered at the governance level. Polkadot has a multi-chain protocol, which can better implement changes.

Qu Junjie: Next let Vitalik answer the questions.

Vitalik:I think my answer It is mainly focused on the protocol, because the underlying protocol needs time to develop. At the same time, it is also necessary to optimize the performance of other different layers. There are different protocols and different programming languages. Sometimes the programming language will change in less than ten years. Through technology integration, we need to make some changes.

There are currently some changes in the Bitcoin ecosystem, different networks are used, languages are constantly being upgraded and Different problems encountered by new technologies in different periods.

We need ways to keep an eye on changes and respond to them.

Juan Benet:I very much agree with them Two points of view, the first is to develop a community that is future-oriented and has very good governance principles. On different layers, there may be some technological progress over time.

The blockchain is still a very complex technology, combining smart contracts and consensus layer attributes. I hope that the blockchain technology can be gradually simplified. For the higher layers of the chain, it is very important to develop simpler and better applications. With the development of the economy, very good applications are required to adapt to the economic situation.

When deploying next-generation blockchains in the future, simplicity needs to be taken into consideration.

Qu Junjie: Thank you very much, the future of the blockchain may be complicated, and the behavior of traditional industries may not be the same. No matter from the government level or from the fundamental level, it will be different and full of challenges.

Vitalik just mentioned privacy protection, privacy protection is very important, Europe has GDPR legislation to protect customer privacy. When the blockchain is applied to other traditional industries, it will encounter privacy protection obstacles.

The blockchain system itself is contradictory, the blockchain is based on trust, but privacy protection involves Tampering with data.

What is the definition of privacy protection for blockchain if you take GDPR into consideration? How to look at the blockchain world in the future and how to protect user data privacy.

Vitalik: Very powerful technology now It has become more and more mature, combining personal privacy with identity verification.

Just as zero-knowledge proof allows us to freely verify the validity of transactions, it cannot be said that all privacy needs to be protected , All information can be made public, specific issues need to be dealt with in a specific way. Some information may be disclosed, but some information may need to be kept private.

Through zero-knowledge proof and other encryption algorithms, I believe that evidence can be verified and data can be protected. We will see more and more of this technology in the next few years.

Juan Benet: Must ensure public chain Privacy information can be protected. Privacy protection is the same as data security. While ensuring privacy, some information that can be made public can be released. A balance must be struck between the two.

All technologies have no national boundaries and are interlinked. Users need to be considered when developing the blockchain, and users need to follow the rules of the blockchain to execute related transactions. Building more and more applications on the blockchain also needs to take privacy protection into account.

Qu Junjie:I agree with you From the point of view, privacy protection can be protected in a verifiable way, and some information can also be made public.

Gavin Wood:I really don’t want to What to add, the most important tool is zero-knowledge proof, and it has slowly matured now. Although it has not yet fully arrived, the efficiency is still a bit low, and it is relatively slow now, especially because the computational complexity is too high. But anyway, it is slowly developing.

While we have complete transparency, we may lose some degree of security, while having transparency There is also a certain degree of security, just like the spectrum.

There may be some trusted verifiers with very high reputations, randomly selected verifiers for verification, or other mechanism. Of course, it may not be very applicable in case of an attack, but it may have its own application scenarios. For example, tools that can be used in less important scenarios.

Besides, zero-knowledge proofs will definitely come in the near future, and transparency and privacy issues will be greatly emphasized solution.

Qu Junjie: Yes, listen It seems that zero-knowledge proof is the best technology choice. Considering the recent vigorous development of decentralized finance, this is the most complex DAPP, logic implementation, and Ethereum use case exception

If we want traditional financial services to move to decentralized finance, usually they will not allow the details of customer transactions to leak out, and will definitely carry out comprehensive protection. Customer ID, transaction behavior, transaction volume, etc. are all fully protected.

How to migrate traditional financial services to the public chain?

Vitalik:How to make traditional finance Services and financial systems are migrated to the public chain.

There have been several obstacles in the past:

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(1) Privacy, many applications certainly cannot accept real-time broadcast of customer data to the world, so zero-knowledge proof can solve this problem.

(2) Capacity expansion and scalability. If you want the system to be deployed globally, say 50, 100, 1000 per second, public chains rarely do this.

(3) Security. The main problem from a security perspective is that systems need to stand the test of time, and people need to be convinced that their security model is reasonable and people can rely on it. But this may take time.

Juan Benet: and privacy, security Sexuality, zero-knowledge proof can solve this problem.

We must have a faster chain, especially in terms of throughput, confirmation time, definitely in a Within seconds, it will take several years to achieve it. We have been talking about partition tolerance, but it has not yet been achieved. The system must be confirmed faster, which is very important for financial services. If features such as security, privacy, and faster confirmation time can be met, most financial services can be moved to the chain.

Gavin Wood:Vitalik and Juan A lot of technical factors, I agree. At the same time, social factors must be considered. This is a social problem that we have to overcome. For example, GDPR, GDPR is notorious because it is too difficult. Europe is already breaking this law, because there is no way to implement and implement the law. How in the crazy all-encompassing law? How is the specific law implemented? Can't think of a solution now. Lawyers are needed, politicians need to be persuaded to buy into the idea, and until then no one is going to figure out how to migrate financial services over there. The privacy of technology is not as important as social factors. If the society does not accept it, there is no way to proceed.

Qu Junjie: Agree, this makes I remembered that the blockchain public chain is the same technology that can change the world. GDPR wants to protect the traditional world, so we have to think outside the box about how to implement drastic reforms. Recently, Teacher Ma has a video.

Which aspects will change your approach when creating a cosmic platform? If there is a time machine, which time point in the past do you want to go back to and start again from there, what is your work focus at that time point, can you give me three work priorities back to the time point.

Juan Benet:If there is a time machine If so, I might do all kinds of things. Travel to the past and the future to see what kind of technology the future will hold.

For the blockchain system, specifically, I may have to go back to two or three years ago to put Scalability was the focus of the work at the time, building a faster chain as soon as possible.

I will push IPFS into the mainstream earlier, pay attention to the blockchain space, and thus carry out faster Mass video distribution. Slowly doing this now, but faster is of course better.

Build stronger connectivity, we are a highly collaborative team, and cooperate very well with other blockchains. I hope we can increase the collaboration and connection with other blockchains , which is good for us.

Vitalik: Answer this question Challenges, there is a dividing line, the line between technology and wisdom. It seems like you're kidding yourself if you want to bring technology back. Going back to 2015 can tell them how evil the world can be and all that.

For the crypto space, the dividing line between wisdom and technology is too blurred, the most important thing is to develop Technology requires a lot of wisdom in technology development, so wisdom and technology cannot be separated, and I cannot tell me how to do technology and how to achieve data availability.

The honest answer is to tell yourself that the technology is as simple as possible, so that you can understand more deeply Adding one more line of code is evil, delete as much as possible. During the development process, we made the system too complicated, which brought a lot of sequelae. We hope to understand the importance of technical simplification from the beginning.

We should be more pragmatic and think about what functions are useful to people.

Qu Junjie:Vitalik, you are us The youngest of them, so you don't need a time machine, you have a lot of time.

Gavin Wood: Totally agree with Vitalik Opinion, it is best to delete a few more lines of code.

This question is difficult to answer, you can go back to the time when technology was discovered, but this may really be deceiving yourself. I don't know, I think I am quite satisfied with the sense of accomplishment I have achieved in my own universe. If I want to go back to the past and tell myself some wisdom, it may be to hurry up and start, don't think about the past, start doing it , In the past 2 or 3 years, I have experienced this very deeply.

Back to January 1, 2016, I may have to tell myself not to think too much, don't think it will be Whatever it looks like, just do it, and see if it works and whether it is feasible. In terms of technology, you can only innovate when you see your own work.

Qu Junjie:Talk about governance I have read Vitalik's speculation about the decision-making process, physical laws, codes, predictions, etc., please talk about how DAO should be governed, which one is the real governance law?

Vitalik: I think governance is a It's quite complicated, because you have to make trade-offs and balance. Different laws are suitable for different scenarios, such as basic governance, high-level governance, and governance of different companies. These governances are more suitable for a small group of people. Different groups have different needs, and the more important the base layer, the more important you have to meet people's expectations, or adjust their expectations to make them happy. If you go to the top level, you may need to emphasize flexibility and adaptability.

It is inevitable to make a trade-off, and it is impossible to say that it is going in one direction 100%, the code is the law. Sometimes people may be more willing to change the code to solve one problem, but on the other hand, if you say that we will make any decisions based on cost-benefit, we may face other problems.

No way to provide stability can become a big problem, depending on what you are governing, there are When you want to weigh efficiency and predictability, or even flexibility and stability, it really depends on what you want to govern.

Juan Benet:I think it needs Different applications have different layers. For example, the lower layer is a relatively basic transaction processing layer, which must be close to physics, ensure stability, and cannot be changed casually in the future. Good governance mechanisms must be established to trade at the economic layer so that the system can decide whether the transaction should be rolled back or pushed further. The higher you go, the less you can incorporate smart contracts into the code system, and you must have a good governance system. There should be a multi-layer system, the lower the more stable, the higher the upper is the main point, the user decides where to put the contract and application, the application is placed in the lower layer to ensure that the user will happen when the transaction occurs, if the transaction, the contract If it is placed at the upper level, it must ensure that there is a good governance mechanism and decision-making mechanism.

We have seen the emergence of online courts now, but they are not mainstream yet, and it will eventually be like this, every major Once the human system involves the interaction of different groups, it will eventually require the mediation of the court system to resolve disputes and unusual things.

Gavin Wood:In general, I Agree, there are two points:

First, the lower the lower level always needs to have the expected law, the lower level is the expected code.

Second, the current low-level system is very high-level, and the first-level platform still has the concept of attributes and tokens The concept of holding tokens, tokens belong to an account, and the account can send tokens. This is a high-level concept, which belongs to the concept of TCPIP, because we are talking about things that ordinary people will use, and we need to have certain expectations. The law is the law, not the code is the law, which is usually determined by courts, governments, or other human mechanisms.

In the future, it may be necessary to go further to the lower layer. For example, the original Polkadot protocol does have a Web3 base layer, but there are no attributes, The concept of tokens and transfers is the basic layer, which is to execute the code, so that it can be substituted into the TCPIP point of view, the code is the law, and there is no other choice.

Qu Junjie:We hope to create new The universe, join the public chain ecosystem, and make your own contribution.

quickly ask some very simple questions like what will the next wave of blockchain applications be What? What will be the next application in the mid-term? What will be the long-term blockchain applications?

Juan Benet: Now with the cloud Computing, cloud storage capabilities, and finally the ability to carry out large-scale consumer applications. This was not the case for most applications before, and now it is finally possible to deploy full-stack applications and mobile applications through the blockchain. In the mid-term, the next wave of applications will include social networks, information systems, and information transmission systems, which can transmit videos, pictures, etc. We can see a new wave of applications entering the consumer field.

In the next few years, there will be important developments in the game industry. This is a very important turning point for blockchain and Web3. Psychological reality and games will allow the token economy to enter the mainstream economy, which is the main factor for large-scale promotion.

Consumer apps, games, virtual reality, etc. should be 2-3 years away.

Gavin Wood:I don’t think people How much will the applications to be played in the future change? I think we may see more enterprise-level systems, for example, using the same technology, but it may be more convenient to use and can provide public services. Be a part of the future changes in blockchain technology.

Not everyone is going to build a killer app, but in the next year or two, we We will see more and more applications appearing at the application level, just like the current DeFi field, there are more and more different applications, and they are better applications.

Vitalik: In the medium term, Some applications may be relatively mature, but there are still some applications that need further optimization. Great applications can be developed based on the blockchain, which may be more mature in the field of open finance, and development opportunities in other fields are very worth looking forward to. For example, in the fields of forecasting and prophecy, etc. In addition, data based on blockchain will also provide services in credit guarantee.

There will be more and more applications in this area, and after the application grows to a certain extent, there will also be a certain degree of decline.

Qu Junjie: Blockchain field It develops very fast and is very open. The main reason is that there is good technology, and everyone, every company, and every enterprise can learn it and apply it. One day in the future, in the blockchain world, it is equivalent to a hundred years for the entire human race, and every change is very fast.

In the long run, what technologies will be very important to the public chain in 5 to 10 years?

Gavin Wood: From the technical level It is very important to look at security, to ensure that the blockchain can achieve different functions. But in the field of technology, there will always be some changes, there will always be developments. For example, related technologies such as encryption economics, zero-knowledge proof, and government governance systems will continue to develop rapidly, and there will be rapid progress.

I believe that the future must be full of infinite possibilities.

Juan Benet:About Blockchain Field technology requires better technology to operate the blockchain system more effectively, and on the other hand, it needs to operate all applications and transactions in a scalable manner. If we say that with the basic components, scalability and efficiency can be achieved, further speeding up transactions.

Web3 has developed to a great extent and has affected the world, and virtual reality will be developed next. The picture quality of virtual reality has improved a lot, and the price has dropped a lot. I believe that virtual reality will be a very important technology.

This is a very important technology for blockchain, which can treat virtual reality like blockchain , open-source and public-facing without a license.

Vitalik:Zero-knowledge proof is an area Blockchain is a pivotal technology, and zero-knowledge proof can protect privacy, making blockchain applications more secure, and scalability is also a very important aspect.

In the ever-evolving world, there will be many innovations and developments in Internet technology, all of which will not only benefit Users will benefit the application creator himself.

Qu Junjie:Thank you very much, listen I am very happy to see that zero-knowledge proof will become a future technology prospect, because Polkadot is a technology focused on this aspect. This is all the content of today's Panel. It is a great honor to be the moderator. Thank you for your tolerance of my Chinese and English. I look forward to seeing you at the conference next year.

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